Bitcoin

[sjkted]

I'm interested in using Bitcoin instead of USD $ (aka Bernanke-bucks). Has anyone been using it? If so, how did you start? And what type of transactions have you done and how did you facilitate them?

Thanks

--sjkted

[Luke]

http://www.dailytech.com/Inside+the+MegaHack+of+Bitcoin+the+Full+Story/article21942.htm

That was like, 9 months ago, do not know if system recovered.

Also, there is issue of "generation" of new bitcoins, and possibility of corruption from individuals that happen to have botnets to grind those coins up. Just saying.

Also, check what "legal tender" means. Sure as hell I do not want to use ANY kind of central-crony-bastards issued money.. but you are forced to pay taxes with it.

[sjkted]

http://www.dailytech.com/Inside+the+MegaHack+of+Bitcoin+the+Full+Story/article21942.htm

That was like, 9 months ago, do not know if system recovered.

Also, there is issue of "generation" of new bitcoins, and possibility of corruption from individuals that happen to have botnets to grind those coins up. Just saying.

Also, check what "legal tender" means. Sure as hell I do not want to use ANY kind of central-crony-bastards issued money.. but you are forced to pay taxes with it.

AFIK Bitcoin has no formal interface with legal tender other than the exchanges.

I remember hearing about this a while ago, but didn't look into it further. They appear to have recovered.

I wouldn't worry about botnets as the amount of time that passes, the more difficult it would be to mine new coins (law of diminishing returns) -- kind of like how it is harder to mine silver and gold right now for individuals, but some people still do that. I don't support the idea of illegal botnets, but I don't think that even with an illegal botnet anyone would be able to game the system to any substantial degree.

Further, I don't plan to keep much in any bitcoin account. My view of all currencies at this point is to spend them as quickly as possible with the exception of Ag and Au.

--sjkted

[Odah]

hmm if there is stuff to buy with it that you want .. then use it ..the value of money is being able to get what you want with it ..i go on about the shadow system or the system coming together in the shadows ..

I don't see a 1 world currency showing up.. what i do see is there being 5 dominant currencies..North america,south america, europe( already there) africa and asia ..with trade networks spaning around the globe haveing currencies unique to that network..but methods to easily turn it into local currency ..

a new currency sytem is one that will make trade easier and level..if bitcoin has stuff you want to buy ..and you like the way you earn the coins then..go ahead..

[sjkted]

hmm if there is stuff to buy with it that you want .. then use it ..the value of money is being able to get what you want with it ..i go on about the shadow system or the system coming together in the shadows ..


That's not the point. It is harder to buy with Bitcoin than USD, Euros, etc. The point is to get away from centralized currency just as those who are interested in precious metals.



I don't see a 1 world currency showing up.. what i do see is there being 5 dominant currencies..North america,south america, europe( already there) africa and asia ..with trade networks spaning around the globe haveing currencies unique to that network..but methods to easily turn it into local currency ..


Not sure how this will play out. The dollar will not last more than a year or two as an international currency. After that, the value will fall here domestically and there will inevitably be talks about how to replace it.

The same thing is happening in Europe with the PIIS (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, and Spain). Notice I left out Greece as they have defaulted but the point being that if the Euro continues it will morph into primarily the Deutsch Mark (DM) controlled by Germany, with perhaps a few other countries in Europe. The other less-wealthy countries will have to be excluded one way or another.

--sjkted

[Odah]

Not sure how this will play out. The dollar will not last more than a year or two as an international currency. After that, the value will fall here domestically and there will inevitably be talks about how to replace it.

please understand i have been hearing this same timline for the last 10 years or so.. the doller will collapse soon ..instead it has been slowly devalued ..not crashed ..

yes there are problems with the eu but it might not be the end .. just a bump in the road or a stretch of bumpy road.. as Europe figures out the problems of having one currency cover many many different financial policies ..and work ethics of different countries ..

the Us dollar had the main world currency role for quite some time.. it will eventually be the non reserve currency ..

the role of money will shift as money is forced to shift from a debt based thing.. as the default in greece and the future defaults of other countries. and the eventual partial default of the Us .. mark it this way.. that it may be convient for the Us government to get rid of the fed ..after the fed has gathered much od the debt the us owns.. i believe there is a hidden policy where the fed is buying up us debt that is already out there ..so the market doesn't get flooded .

the default of Greece and the forgiving of smaller debts around the us and world.. are raising the ir of the people working their butts off to pay back their debt.. the debt system is built off of the expectation people will repay and countries will repay.. as people are allowed not to repay.. and countries are allowed to not repay..without any real punishment .. then the system starts to unravel ..

the only value money has is what it can get you today .. if today . bit coin might be nice but if you can buy the food you need today or pay your rent with it is no good.. but if it is valuable enough that you can trade it with someone for Us d and then pay your rent or buy food..then fine ..

alternative currencies are needed to work along with wide scale currencies like the dollar and the euro ..

[Luke]

Thing you all need to understand, is that value of anything is perception-based.

In games, you have actual non-relative (fixed) price attached to "thing"- and developers do so, because this is what people feel comfortable with. It is also precisely opposite to reality, when value is relative and local. Also, in reality, to discover price of what you want to trade, you need to actually trade it, though quotes for similar products on the market help.

That includes all currencies that are out there, including gold and silver.

Though some currencies-based on scarce commodities - have a backstop- the actual , physical scarcity of underlying good. Non-scarce-medium currencies have nothing of a kind.

Now, on the one hand, we have "human nature" that seeks fixed price and (beside few adventurous neophiliacs) frozen, fixed, economic system, with defined top and bottom (and higher you up the ladder, the more frozen you like it to be). On the other hand we have a system that is naturally dynamic, and any kind of fix will result in ripping the atemptee face off (clue: current crisis)

Of course, that does not stopped people to try to fix stuff, and get regularly obliterated by "invisible hand".

Anyway notice: "human nature" as expressed by bulk of population is in stark opposition to economic reality underlying the society.

Such situation is ripe for charlatans, that promise some quick fix. State-issued currency that kind of fix, tailored for minds of unsophisticated population. The mantra is the same for 300 years: stable prices and full employment. Reality is always inflation for "the people" and wealth extraxtion from "the people" to those able to issue the currency- becaust this is what fiat money is designed to do: robbery under guise of stable prices. Robbery that is backed by the gun of state-enforces, eventually. But first and foremost- it is mind-job.

So - official currencies will exist as long as people will believe that they are legitimate carriers of value - and will voluntarily use them. Given that some of those currencies are recognizable worldwide, and specific transactions are made in bulk using one, designated currency (oil for dollars, nothing else - unless you do not use one of the two designated exchanges)- the people will use them, no matter how volatile and relatively speaking unvaluable they become - they have too much mental value attached to ditch them. After all personal "wealth" are denominated in those currencies, and those currencies is what your friendly state-sponsored tax-thug will demand- so it is a matter of both "convenience" - and lack of inconvenience of tax-thug raid.

And that mental attachment is what keeps this show going. As long as there is mental habit of equaling state-monopoly money with value- the predatory system that favours state-ruling elite will continue. And only way for that state of affairs to stop is to bulk of population to refuse in accepting those monopolistic currencies - which is precisely what will not happen- because this fake, volatile, silly currency is what answers the most ingrained fears of his people- that is being essentially worthless.

So - as with great many things- "our" currency is actually a projection of our collective predatory mind (http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?9976-The-Wetiko), and will last as long as that state of mind will last. Which will be to the literal end of this world (as we know it).

Before that happens, all info about dollar demise are rumours without substance - unless we are talking super-dolar i.e. the global fake currency (that is curency issued by global central state monopoly, instead of current state one) - but that will only happen if it will be embraced by elite themselves. So if Bill Gate's "value" will start to be quoted in SDR's (or bitcoins) then it is time to get out of Dodge.

Then , there is a question of how transition between Empire of U.S.A. and The Earth Empire will be facilitated.

3766

[Odah]

i agrre with luke and disagree with him ..lol

The only reason money has value is because a the people involved agree it has value ..

and they agree to is because in the form it takes that day ..it get people what they want..

with centrally managed currencies it is built in that next year the dollar you made today will buy you less than it will buy you today . the people instint for the most part is not tosave money .. because they understand it is not worth saving .. and it is only worth building up..when problems brew or when it seem problems are comming..

[reaver]

I really don't know much about bitcoin, but my guess is that you wouldn't really escape the system itself. If you go out in your town or city, they are not going to accept bitcoin.

and I think the big issue is not X or Y currency, the problem are the policies behind them and the psychology of the people who use those systems. If the majority of bitcoin users are fucked up in the head... then I'd expect it to be a failure like every other currency in terms of allowing humankind to move forward.

Wouldn't hackers have a huge advantage when it comes to using bitcoin? I mean on their website they say there's no central authority and that the community itself regulates the operations with the currency... but small groups of people who understand how software programming works could take advantage and screw everyone else.

[Luke]

Well, for one, it has been hacked already, though supposedly this hack could not happen again, because now all wallets are protected with private cryptokey.

Coins are generated offline though, and so are the wallets, so technically it is possible to get your hands on one and break it, even if the time to do so might be prohibitively long (see usual approximations for force-breaking assymetric keys) Though, if one lies hand on the wallet file, it is not that hard to get hands on key file .. so again, human (and his laziness) is the weakest link in chain.

Also, coins can be mined. There are known botnets that do so. Wiki also says some "clever guys" used large companies networks to generate them. Plenty of power running around, even if system is supposed to limit the coin creation to one block per 10 minutes which results at approximately 50 new BC added to account of the one doing the computation (permanent inflation anybody?).

And, whoever tried playing WoW, anything that can be mined, will be, no matter how difficult "authorities" make it. But that is my inner cynic speaking, but every failing MMO economy is proof of. Personally I do not like the idea of currency generated without any real work involved, but then, one can argue that creating gold did not required human work too.

Anyway, as Rothbard explained time and time again, point is not in having one true, right currency. Actually that is opposite to what is needed in unconstrained economy, where the local value flow dictates what could be used i.e. no matter what is named money, as long as it works. It also means, it should be freely ditched the second it stop working - which again is against what typical human neophobe (whereabouts of 19/20 humans according to RAW) believes it should be. . Multiple currencies freely competing or cooperating with each other on market (value is value, no matter the medium), instead of de-facto one currency that is controlled by very small group of individuals, by this "right" allowed to loot "the rest" with impunity.

Which means however I personally dislike bitcoin, it is step in right direction: taking value-control out of central bankers hands.

Without that control the looting can only be done in old-fashioned way i.e with guns, which is far less easy to mindjob.

One need to be on the outlook for other brands of exploiters.

I am repeating myself, but money is only a proxy, a token for value, and value is related to perceived gain from interaction. In healthy non-coercive society, all transactions should result in gain for both sides.

If we try to model economy as a electric circuit, the value is akin to amperage (current .. currency.. same root). Money is measurement of charge going through - and you can fake the scale as long as you like, you do not change the thing you measure ... though, you can try to cover-up for energy stealing- which is precisely the case in central-banking scheme.

And, using same mental model of circuit, you will see that building of "charge" in our private "capacitors" is what making new endeavours possible, not faking the scale by creating debt-money, you will see the depth of depravity of current scheme.

[Odah]

small network currencies like bitcoin will have their place ..but there is a need for the stability that one currency backing the transaction in one region .. as i said eventual.. the euro will be shored up.. north america will go with one currency .. south america will have one currency ..asia and africe.. but there will be a large number of small network alternative currencies people will use for small transactions ..

central bankers have their power because the transacions in the countries they manage ..are in the currency they control and manipulate ..when the population have a choice of what currencies to use either the regional currency or a or multiple network currencies .. the the controll over the value of the money is in the hands of the users ..

luke mention mmo economies ..though it is real interesting when nexxon a f2p giant has it's currency for it's games and you spend 1 dollar for 1000 nx and can by items fluff and buffs for characters in game..and there is a huge black market for in game gold in every mmo out their ..where people illegally buy a large amount of gold for a small amount of money..

Blizzard makers of Wow is releasing a system where you can put real money in an account..and by gold and items at a sanction auction house ..if it works it will become an indusrty standard in the next few years..and in game gold will always have a real money value .

again regional currencies with a large number of networks and virtual currencies ..will be the future of money..and yes there may be less papper money and you will do most transacions with debit card or preloaded charge cards

[sjkted]

I really don't know much about bitcoin, but my guess is that you wouldn't really escape the system itself. If you go out in your town or city, they are not going to accept bitcoin.

You would be surprised. Bitcoins are accepted internationally and convertable into pre-paid Visa/Mastercard cards as well as precious metals that are accepted all over the world. The transactions are also completely anonymous.

--sjkted

---------- Post added at 15:26 ---------- Previous post was at 15:24 ----------




Well, for one, it has been hacked already, though supposedly this hack could not happen again, because now all wallets are protected with private cryptokey.


No, it wasn't hacked. An exchange provider was hacked. This stuff happens all the time with big bank institutions but rarely reaches the public light. An example would be if a local bank got hacked and someone claimed that Visa was compromised. The only difference being that if it was a bank that was compromised, losses would be quietly concealed and covered by insurance, while the hackers were attempted to be apprehended. And, sometimes the hackers really do get away with some or all of the money. There will be security vulnerabilities that come to light with Bitcoin, but it is a hardening process if it is a viable method of currency.

--sjkted

[reaver]

How does that work exactly? I mean what would make companies like Visa and Mastercard accept to convert a currency which to some degree operates outside the system?

That's interesting to say the least, I didn't know that you could convert bitcoin.

[sjkted]

How does that work exactly? I mean what would make companies like Visa and Mastercard accept to convert a currency which to some degree operates outside the system?

That's interesting to say the least, I didn't know that you could convert bitcoin.

It works through an exchange. For example, let's say you were in the US and had Bitcoin but no US dollars. We could negotiate a rate of conversion from Bitcoin to US dollars. Then, You would send me your Bitcoin and I would buy a pre-paid Visa card, load it up with US dollars, and give it to you. That's really all it is.

--sjkted

[reaver]

Thought this video was relevant to the topic:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHMvknT_uk4

Something which people would need to be vigilant about, to not let the corporate/government leviathan use systems like bitcoin to stenghten themselves and screw everyone else.

[Odah]

reaver enjoyed the vid as he says many thing i do.. i don't just make this stuff up.. you get a interesting view of this looking beyond the conspiracy realm ..

If 2012 is the end of the world as we know it ..it is the end of the world of extracting value from the masses via a debt money system .. if people are borrowing money ..lend it to governments who will tax the people and get you money back ..

the internet allowing people to dirctly exchange value..and many other systems out there that mean you can operate on a small scale ..mean you don't have to live by the growth model..

so the future of currencies ..it will be important to have a wide scale regional currency to take care of most of your transaction..as it is easier if your doing business with somone 1000 miles away and you are using the same currency ..even if you are in diffent countries .. but your supply network can stretch around the world .. so either there is a network itself that has a cuurency you can use..or there is only a few other currencies that are kept at relativly the same value .. that make trade a lot easier for a small operation ..

right now the currency system and national borders are i big hinderance to the growth of a networked economy ..when they where key factors in the growth and control of the old agriculture then industrial worlds of scarsity ...that treated the people on the other side of the borders as enemies trying to take your stuff or flood you with cheap goods ..

abundence changes everything and it is government rules and restriction that create lack today..not natural forces

[sjkted]

Wow. That was a great talk. I'm beginning to believe in that message more and more...

--sjkted

[Odah]

the money /debt system breaks down as we get into a state where abundance is the more natural state than living in lack .

what e are going through now is a time when the tech is comming together and in the next 5-10 years a lot of the lack in the world can be wiped out ..the question is how will people earn the money they need . when 5 percent of people can produce what everyone else needs ..food water and other stuff ..even the service economy breaks down as people have more time to do things they use to pay people to do ..

So the only answer i can come up with if we are not going to chew through the resoureces of the world to create work for people .. is an explosion of virtual economies ..that allow people to take gold or what ever form of currency made in these economies and turn it into real currency to pay bills ..

personaly Gold in diablo 3 where it will have a real money value in several currencies around the world .a system built into the game to take gold out of circulation ..and demand from millions of players ..will be a more viable alternaitve currency than bit coin .. over time there will be 100 such systems around the world with different games ..

but i am a nutcase as many many people laughed at me on the forums there when i explained the implications of the system..

the tyrany of central bankers stems from their monopoly on the money supply of an area or country..with world wide networked .. virtual economies and even person to person trade..and barter has been comming back slowly over the last few decades ..they will lose their power ..or at least have to adjust the system

[sjkted]

what e are going through now is a time when the tech is comming together and in the next 5-10 years a lot of the lack in the world can be wiped out ..the question is how will people earn the money they need .


One part of the answer is that we will all need a lot less money. Another thing is that people will find new methods of leisure, luxury, technology, and research and development. All of those require human resources (i.e. labor). They will also be much more specialized forms of labor.

--sjkted

[Luke]

Again, basics, basics, basics.

The purpose of money is to coordinate scarce resources in economy. Since thing that is really exchanged in economy: the value, is intanglible, there is a medium (money) used to represent it.

The goal of economic system is to put those scarce resources where they are most productive i.e valuable.

It is done by freely exchanging those resources on the open market, with those offering best value getting the resources they need. The way to obtain value is to provide something valuable to the market itself: thus the network of exchanges emerge, which we call economy, with value being charge flowing through it.

Any thing that disturbs that free flow damages economy as a whole, and make resource allocation imperfect, which results in crashes, manias, booms and boosts.

Long story short: in true economy you get from the system equal value to what you provided, but in form that is useful to you. Turning what you have into what you need. A way of transmuting stuff. This is essence of economy.

In case you did not noticed, there is no place for "wage" there. There is award or punishment relative to state of the network - those "in tune" with flow of the current sail, those trying to force it, waste energy. The state of things is in constant flux.

Precise opposite of true economy is "centrally planned economy"/"war economy", where there is no concern about effective resource allocation, emphasis being on sticking with the plan no matter what. Since plans cannot be verified by real life (no planner have accurate information about whole system, so he works with what he believes to be true), those systems are inherently full of waste, energy sinks that drain whole economic system till it cease to exist, replaced by the whim of those making the plans they label as "good". Actually the first goal of central planners is to strike against "speculators", and dismantle the feedback loops crucial to true economy. Fixed wages and prices are tools of the trade here, as they are part of the plan - but they result in inadequate awarding of well connected people, and punishing those, who planners do not care about - situation abhorrent to true economy.

Either of those economies need specific form of money.

True economy needs money that is accurate representation of value and allows for storing it and discharging in form of new investment, which then is priced by market. Risk/reward but also swift punishment if the investment does not meet needs of the market. Knowing this, value should be represented in liquid form, in accordance with local needs of the network - which means that there is no designated money, instead the most locally marketable resource becomes the money. If that good becomes hoarded -it vanishes from the market- becomes illiquid, then it automatically looses the function of money, which is transferred to what is currently marketable. Good example of this is history of precious metals, where gold and silver co-existed, with the one being more liquid acting as local money, often supplemented with other marketable resources (tobacco, sugar, salt). Whenever there was an attempt to fix this natural fluctuation, it resulted in crash.

Planned economy needs another kind of money: money whose value can be centrally adjusted, thus resources bought with it will end wherever central planners want them to be (usually in their hands, or those they favour). Easiest way to do that is source-sink model, when the value is high near the source (central bank), then as it is transferred down the ladder, the value diminishes (drained away in taxes, tarrifs, bureaucratic procedures), so the ones at the bottom only receive meaningless scraps - which means they cannot affect planned state of things in any meaningful manner. Those most influential receive the value, not those productive.

So, those are things one need to evaluate whenever new "money scheme" appears: which model does it fit in: the flow of free market OR the planned "economy".

[Odah]

basic..free markets only stay free untill one player become big enough to control the market and or influence government to give that player an advantage ..which is why the US has not really had free markets in a while.. the big players can control some markets ..and get perks from the government.. the only thing is they have to accept several other big players ..

the net.. network .. stream line transport system..on demand production..and more and more of what we consume never taking a solid form..basically..scrambles the old notion of economy..because .. yes economics is supposed to measure the distribution of finite resourses..

At this point more things are becoming infinite or because people are developing different tastes from each other ..mass demand for certain thing is shifting ..a popular tv program doesn't get the same viewer ship a program that would have gotten cut for not enough audiance had 25 years ago ..

money is just the tool people use as a medium of exchange because it much more convient..the value of it is agreed upon ..because it is easier for me to put a money cost on something than try to haggle every transaction and barter for goods with people who want my services .. but i don't need their services..

and a new money for an abunence based economy would have to be an abunence based currency ..now we have a trickle down/ or redistribution system.. we will be transitioning to s system where money flows through a networ instead of trickling down layers of a pyramid ..

government and their tax rate are more responsible for stealling money from people than the money system itself.. the number one thing you hear from people around the world is no matter what governing system they are in..it is corrupt ..and so is the money of the system..

and Gold is being heavily marketed by the system..we won't go back to a metals backed currency ..

[sjkted]

basic..free markets only stay free untill one player become big enough to control the market and or influence government to give that player an advantage ..which is why the US has not really had free markets in a while.. the big players can control some markets ..and get perks from the government.. the only thing is they have to accept several other big players ..


The only thing that keeps free markets from being free is violence or the threat of violence. When you think about it, the only legitimate thing the government has or does is a monopoly on violence. A market monopoly is when a single or multiple players have a license granted by the government which is backed up by violence or threat of violence. For example, lawyers and doctors are a monopoly system. If you want to be a lawyer or doctor, you have to play by the rules and get a state-sponsored license. If you don't get a license, but choose to practice medicine or law, the government will arrest you.

There are industries where one or more players have a stranglehold on the market, but these are not true monopolies because they are still open to competition. Typically, as players become more established, they look to create monopolies to hold their positions. A good example would be contractors. There are some unlicensed "handymen" who are just as capable as contractors and charge 1/6 of the price of the contractor because they have no license, insurance, and massive overhead -- but in many cases, it is illegal to hire them for larger jobs because they do not have the appropriate license.



At this point more things are becoming infinite or because people are developing different tastes from each other .


As far as I can tell, real physical things are becoming more scarce, precious and expensive while virtual things are becoming cheaper and nearly infinite. Although in many cases such as computing, these are built on faulty economic models and will eventually fail, even though most people seem to have forgotten the dot com boom and bust.



and Gold is being heavily marketed by the system..we won't go back to a metals backed currency ..


Only if the current power structure stays in place. If they are removed, it's anyone's guess what happens. It is also possible there could be a parallel black-market economy that deals in PMs.

--sjkted

[Odah]

the current power structures will lose control over the next several decades we are just at the start of where there is something else to work with..and the other networked ecnomy will grow as the old system sheds jobs and loses ability to do what it use to..

i fail to see where there is a scarcity of physical goods ..infact there is plenty of most everything..yeah food may seem scarce..but when governments are paying poeople not to grow and turning a good chunk of the crop into ethenol ..it creats false scarcity ..we have already all agreed that the only reason eneggy supplies are scarce or seem scare..is because of supression of free energy system..

we can easily solve the food supply problem builing green house building that can peoducr food close to cities year round without persticides herbaside..and huge amounts of petrol shipping produce between countries ..the method and tech is there ..

the Us dollar has been the currency of the fossil fuel economy ..the price of gas is not going up because of more demand ..there is more supply comming online ..the price is going up because of the devaluation of the dollar.. the price of food is going up because the devaluation and the government turning food into fuel ..

remember the entire system is meant to keep the people in a state of needing to work ..via debt or taxes ..or other costs ..the money system is one tool in the box ..

the sad part is most people think money is scarece.. when there is basically unl;imited money out there ..it is just looking for ways to make more money ..

with a system of netwro trade that is only in the first ten years of real viability..thanks to the over capacity created by the dot com boom and the cheep bandwitch that was a result .. we only now have more and more tools to effectivly put the network to use and let it grow ..

the future economy is about value exchange over value extraction.. with less emphasis on becoming rich and more emphasis on trade between people .. and the people who make big money are now the ones providing the systems for people to trade between each other..and it will only become more common ..

do you think google would have become as big as it did if tens of thousand of people hadn't figured out how to make money selling stuff with google adds ..or adwords and adsence..or whatever is out there now.. craigslist ..ebay ..amizon is a big source of income for many affiliates and a great way to sell books without having to fo through retail shelf space ..

Money will change as it shifts from being debt based to value based .. over the next decade or two

[sjkted]

i fail to see where there is a scarcity of physical goods


Look at metals pricing. Look at the cost of steel. Look at the copper thefts. Those are real. And, meanwhile everything we have gets made out of cheaper and cheaper quality plastic and is meant to break a year or two after purchase. The food system has dramatically dropped in quality over the last 20 years. Doing some research will find how high-fructose corn syrup and genetically-modified crop dramatically save costs for food producers (in the short term). All this means that real stuff has gotten substantially more expensive and scarce, but in most cases it is hidden.

--sjkted

[Odah]

Look at metals pricing. Look at the cost of steel. Look at the copper thefts. Those are real. And, meanwhile everything we have gets made out of cheaper and cheaper quality plastic and is meant to break a year or two after purchase. The food system has dramatically dropped in quality over the last 20 years. Doing some research will find how high-fructose corn syrup and genetically-modified crop dramatically save costs for food producers (in the short term). All this means that real stuff has gotten substantially more expensive and scarce, but in most cases it is hidden.

--sjkted

are you mistaking higher demand for these items because china is intent on building ghost cities ..with true scarcity ..and there is no shortage of real sugar in the world there is import tariffs so corn syrup is the cheaper thing to use . as someone who worked in food processing i know how much corn syrup was used .. or is used ..

and again government policies are in play pushing farmers to use the gmo seed and grow corn instead of other crops .. scarcity by government mandate .. is different than real scarcity ..

copper is not being stolen because it is in short supply .. it is because tthere is demand for it ..and it is easier for criminals to make money stealing copper than working ..and again high cost for commodites are also do to the deflating value of the dollar ..

[sjkted]

are you mistaking higher demand for these items because china is intent on building ghost cities ..with true scarcity ..and there is no shortage of real sugar in the world there is import tariffs so corn syrup is the cheaper thing to use . as someone who worked in food processing i know how much corn syrup was used .. or is used ..


I'm just saying that metals are being replaced with plastics and high-quality food is replaced by low-quality food. Now, if we were discussing whether higher-quality metals still exist and high-quality food still exists, the answer would be yes. But, if you go shopping in any city in America, you will find that high-quality products and high-quality food is very scarce, artificial or not.

--sjkted

[Odah]

it really depends where you shop and how much your willing to spend.. high quality goods cost money.. and most place you shop people want the cheap stuff ..stuff is purposely built to break down and need to be replaced ..and again most food stores are stuffed with mass produced produce ..if your willing to spend more..

people don't want to spend the extra money for high quality food they would rather buy the cheap crap so they can eat tons of it ..but for those who want it there is places they can get it if they have the money ..

also being able to replace metal with carbon compositis or plastics is not a bad thing ..why build appliance to last when people throw them out and get new ones whenever they feel like it ..

and i will add a lot of appliances have been reduced in quality and durability because of epa regulations which have made things like old fashioned washing machiens poor quality to for people to buy front loaders that use less water..and diswashers don't work as well because epa has forced the reduxtion in clean agents in the diswasher detergent ..

we can go on for 100 more pages with you pointing out scarcity in some place and me pointing out some government regulation .. or government practice at fault ... the tech is there or almost there.. it is the regulation that are being piled on that cause false scarcity ..

education, health care , the state of infrastructure in the us.. the food supply ..water ..electricity..oil ..they all have thousands of pages of regulation ..that reduce quality.. supply and drive up the costs of stuff.

it's easy enough to look at it and see where the problem is ..the people in charge of the money supply and everything else want to do everything they can to creat scarcity .

It's not the way thing should be it's the way the powers that be has imposed ..

and now they want to completly crush upward mobility in the Us with this campeing to raise taxes on those people who earn 100 or 200k a year..

nation borders restricting small scale trade..and multiple currencies are toos of scarcity and restriction ..

look at tax codes that are implemented to take from those doing to well and climbing the ladder.. but not from those who have already made their money get to hide new money they make in many ways..
.

god i am sound like some anti government conspiracy theorist here ..can someone point me to the proper forum ..haha..

the sad part is that a lot of these regulations are put in place by misguided people who think they are doing good .

Fiat debt based money is the corrupt blood in a corrupt system ..the collapse of the dollar would also mean a collapse of the Us and then much of the world .. instead there will be the devaluation we have now with the dollar getting replaced as the reserve currency withing the next two years after the rest of the world shifts to a different currency .. then from their currencies aroudn the world will start mergin as the economy starts it recovery ..

[sjkted]

it really depends where you shop and how much your willing to spend.. high quality goods cost money.. and most place you shop people want the cheap stuff ..stuff is purposely built to break down and need to be replaced ..and again most food stores are stuffed with mass produced produce ..if your willing to spend more..


Not really. A friend of mine bought a brand new Mercedes and the second day after driving it off the lot, she turned the seat heater on and the whole seat caught on fire while she was driving it. Oops... manufacturer defect. A client of mine just recently had their laptop catch on fire... Oops... battery recall. These things are all over the place and I'm sure could and have been quantified in many ways.

If you do some research into premium brands from washing machines, dishwashers, cars, and clothing, the expensive stuff is just as cheaply made as the cheap stuff -- it just has more bells and whistles and the perception of high-end merchandise.

None of this stuff holds a candle to the materials that were used 20 years ago. You can easily see this from the warranties -- do some research on what current warranties are vs. 5, 10 and 20 years ago -- it's a real shocker and it also shows how long products are expected to last.



people don't want to spend the extra money for high quality food they would rather buy the cheap crap so they can eat tons of it ..but for those who want it there is places they can get it if they have the money ..


Actually, it's much more than that. I'm willing to spend the extra money and have a very difficult time finding high-quality food. The problem again is that many health-conscious consumers are duped into food that has the perception of being high-quality but in reality is only nominally better than the cheap stuff. Just last week, I bought organic peanut butter from a big-brand store only to find out later that it included organic sugar as the second ingredient. Even Whole Foods in the US which charges very high prices (you have to go there to believe what the products cost) have a large variety of genetically-modified foods (see below).

All of these brands and merchandise are pretenders, just a shell of what the real thing is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvU2yH4IpBo

I think we agree on the government regulation part. Not only has it decreased the quality of appliances, the continual push to create lighter-weight cars causes lower-quality cars with stupidities as styrofoam bumpers and more tech such as sophisticated airbags to make up for the lack of weight in the vehicle. This stuff is all over the place, but it does create real scarcity -- brand new cars and appliances that are made with quality are very scarce, even though the condition is artificial by government regulation and planning policies of functional obsolescence.
--sjkted

[Luke]

The problem again is that many health-conscious consumers are duped into food that has the perception of being high-quality but in reality is only nominally better than the cheap stuff.
Same pattern everywhere, no?

It's all about belief-based perceptions.

Like for example craving for sugar. Personally, I decided to stay away from the stuff 2 years ago, and not only I got back to my "feel good" weight in no time, my taste also developed. It is same with many additives that are perception-enhancers (smell, texture, taste). Take them out, and the whole perception of food changes .. though you will need to learn to recognize it all anew - which is the step people are unwilling to make. Difference from "normalcy"/"consensus" is too much.

Same as with using dollars, habitual repetition aspire to be "only real thing", while it is really laziness mixed with neophobia and myopia, sprinkled with fistful of wishful thinking.

Bad things will go away, if I close my eyes firm....

Bullshit.

[Odah]

yeah skit.. the car destroying seat heaters and the laptops with exploding batteries where a big problem 20 year ago ..actually in my city is was drive bys and 2 or three people getting murdered a week with people stealing parts off of cars in your driveway ..there where no computers ..cell phones where just becoming common ..and whatever..

my first computer in 1997 cost me almost 2 grand it had a crappy monitor ..and a 66mhz pentium processor..and melted down 2 years after i bought it .

meh .. i guess there is no point going further with this .. if you insist on seeing lack and no hope thing will get better ..

omg there are problems with products that didn't even exist 20 years ago .. seat warmers ..

seat warmers ... a malfuntionion seat warmer is proof that we are in a world of scarcity .. god dang .. a scare waorld seat warmers and laptops would still be sience fiction..and signs of elitist luxry ..

so your friends with the mercedes is a millionaire right ...those where cars of the rich and elite 20 or 30 years ago ..

we have used mass production to feed most of the world to the point where now there are as many over weight people as malnourished.. we can use tools of new tech to produce higher quality food for more people ..

[sjkted]

omg there are problems with products that didn't even exist 20 years ago .. seat warmers ..


Actually, that's not true. I drive a 30-year old Mercedes every day and seat warmers were a standard option new from the dealer on my car. And, believe me, there is zero chance that any of the 1980's vintage seat wamers would catch on fire.



if you insist on seeing lack and no hope thing will get better ..


I live in California. We're actually leading the whole country in organic foods and developments. I have the privilege to buy my groceries at the only 100% organic supermarket in the entire state. That ought to tell you the sad state of affairs we are in. There is definite lack in the world, but not in my life.



so your friends with the mercedes is a millionaire right ...those where cars of the rich and elite 20 or 30 years ago ..


No, she works as a medical payment processor and probably makes slightly over minimum wage. You can actually lease a brand new Mercedes for ~$300-$400/month, which does not qualify as "rich" IMO (at least with the very high cost of living in California). If I had to guess, she probably spends over 1/3 of her wages to support her new Mercedes.

--sjkted

[Odah]

There is lack but there is a lot less lack than there was 20 years ago ..

yes there are glitches because of the world wide supply chains ...and over time there will be a lot less lack as networks include more and more people..

Honestly the American"standard" of living ..that cropped up untill the economic crisis..where many people filled ever larger houses with crap..then bought storage units and filled that with more crap.. is something that is fine to put in the past ..

the state of the food supply is the way it is because many americans like to pile more food than many people eat in three days ..on their plates in one meal ..maybe higher food prices forcing people to chose ..and mnakeing what was cheap unhealthy food..more expensive and putting the quality stuff withing the proper price range ..

red meat is toxic in the amounts american eat it ..but with the drought in Taxes and the southern states..and higher feed prices.. red meat is more expensive.. so people are chosing something else to eat . as people demand and pay attention to where their food is coming from.. food quality will improve..

if there is one thing that modern society ..and the powers that be made really scarce..it was time ..part of the plan was to milk the people who could make lots of money..by putting heavy demands on their time..and forcing them to spend as much money as possible..while giving them no chance to notice what was going on around them..

now the system is throwing problems at people so fast that they don't know what to be outraged about any more ..

warren buffet wining about wealthy people not paying enough taxes..while his company owes 1 billion in taxes ,
a new group of people the president says to be angry at every few days.
the government loaning money to green compainies to manufacture in the Us.. the compaies loaning that money to executives ..then shutting down and moving to china..and forgiving the loans..
yada yada yada.

Corruption is the biggest problem and it is poisoning pretty much every government in the world right now..it is the hands of these corrupt government..that suck up resourses from people and and regulate in a way the makes distribution harder ..

again the lacxk you see and the problems you can point out .. in todays world are as likely to be the result of cxorrupt government policies and regulations ..