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Thread: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

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    Senior Member Dorok's Avatar
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    The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...furious-truth/

    I implore everyone interested in this issue to read this piece completely. The 'news' has been covering only distorted 'talking points'.

    Here are some tidbits (since the article is long):

    Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.
    Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.
    Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."
    By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.
    By June 2010 the agents had sent the U.S. Attorney's office a list of 31 suspects they wanted to arrest, with 46 pages outlining their illegal acts. But for the next seven months prosecutors did not indict a single suspect.
    On Dec. 14, 2010, a tragic event rewrote the narrative of the investigation. In a remote stretch of Peck Canyon, Ariz., Mexican bandits attacked an elite U.S. Border Patrol unit and killed an agent named Brian Terry. The attackers fled, leaving behind two semiautomatic rifles. A trace of the guns' serial numbers revealed that the weapons had been purchased 11 months earlier at a Phoenix-area gun store by a Fast and Furious suspect.
    Indeed, a six-month Fortune investigation reveals that the public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies. Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case. Several, including Voth, are speaking out for the first time.
    "Republican senators are whipping up the country into a psychotic frenzy with these reports that are patently false," says Linda Wallace, a special agent with the Internal Revenue Service's criminal investigation unit who was assigned to the Fast and Furious team (and recently retired from the IRS). A self-described gun-rights supporter, Wallace has not been criticized by Issa's committee.
    Irony abounds when it comes to the Fast and Furious scandal. But the ultimate irony is this: Republicans who support the National Rifle Association and its attempts to weaken gun laws are lambasting ATF agents for not seizing enough weapons?ones that, in this case, prosecutors deemed to be legal.
    Without a real-time database of gun sales, they had to perform a laborious archaeology. Day after day, they visited local gun dealers and pored over forms called 4473s, which dealers must keep on file. These contain a buyer's personal information, a record of purchased guns and their serial numbers, and a certification that the buyer is purchasing the guns for himself. (Lying on the forms is a felony, but with weak penalties attached.) The ATF agents manually entered these serial numbers into a database of suspect guns to help them build a picture of past purchases.
    By January 2010 the agents had identified 20 suspects who had paid some $350,000 in cash for more than 650 guns. According to Rep. Issa's congressional committee, Group VII had enough evidence to make arrests and close the case then.

    This was not the view of federal prosecutors. In a meeting on Jan. 5, 2010, Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. Attorney in Phoenix overseeing the Fast and Furious case, told the agents they lacked probable cause for arrests, according to ATF records. Hurley's judgment reflected accepted policy at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona. "[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful," Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney's then?criminal chief in Arizona would later write. "Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime." (Arizona federal prosecutors referred requests for comment to the Justice Department, which declined to make officials available. Hurley noted in an e-mail, "I am not able to comment on what I understand to be an ongoing investigation/prosecution. I am precluded by federal regulation, DOJ policy, the rules of professional conduct, and court order from talking with you about this matter." Cunningham's attorney also declined to comment.)
    It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them. A buyer who certified that the guns were for himself, then handed them off minutes later, hadn't necessarily lied and was free to change his mind. Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn't mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize.
    Prosecutors repeatedly rebuffed Voth's requests. After examining one suspect's garbage, agents learned he was on food stamps yet had plunked down more than $300,000 for 476 firearms in six months. Voth asked if the ATF could arrest him for fraudulently accepting public assistance when he was spending such huge sums. Prosecutor Hurley said no. In another instance, a young jobless suspect paid more than $10,000 for a 50-caliber tripod-mounted sniper rifle. According to Voth, Hurley told the agents they lacked proof that he hadn't bought the gun for himself.
    Voth grew deeply frustrated. In August 2010, after the ATF in Texas confiscated 80 guns?63 of them purchased in Arizona by the Fast and Furious suspects? Voth got an e-mail from a colleague there: "Are you all planning to stop some of these guys any time soon? That's a lot of guns?Are you just letting these guns walk?"
    Voth responded with barely suppressed rage: "Have I offended you in some way? Because I am very offended by your e-mail. Define walk? Without Probable Cause and concurrence from the USAO [U.S. Attorney's Office] it is highway robbery if we take someone's property." He then recounted the situation with the unemployed suspect who had bought the sniper rifle. "We conducted a field interview and after calling the AUSA [assistant U.S. Attorney] he said we did not have sufficient PC [probable cause] to take the firearm so our suspect drove home with said firearm in his car?any ideas on how we could not let that firearm 'walk'"?
    Less than 36 hours after the CBS report, Voth was jolted awake at dawn by the blaring of his burglar alarm. With his wife and children still in bed, he crept down the stairs of his desert home, his ATF-issued .40 caliber Sig Sauer extended before him. In the garage, he saw a door ajar and a massive kettle bell he used for workouts knocked from its place. Outside, the fleeing intruder had left behind a partial footprint in the sand.
    As Voth waited for the police, he checked his e-mail and found an anonymous threat, sent minutes earlier: "You God-damned stupid 'Yes-Man' who does not have either the morals, or the intelligence, to realize that allowing this 'Fast and Furious' operation would result in unnecessary, unjustified deaths: MAY YOU EAT SHIT AND DIE." Later his wife found a strange car outside their house and an angry post on the Internet listing their home address. Voth confidentially shared his concern about that post in a meeting with two senior ATF officials, only to find an account of the meeting on the Sipsey Street blog within 24 hours.
    The ATF's office of operations security investigated the threats to Voth. A confidential report on March 29, 2011, concluded, "ATF 'insiders' are the number one threat to GS Voth and his family." The report cited "at least six individuals," whom it did not name, who had "personal agendas to undermine the credibility of ATF supervisors and members of management as retribution for [Voth's] operational shortcomings." The report cited the two blogs and concluded that "the malicious intent of insiders" had led directly to Voth's becoming the target of a "nation-wide?libel campaign."
    New facts are still coming to light?and will likely continue to do so with the Justice Department inspector general's report expected in coming months. Among the discoveries: Fast and Furious' top suspects?Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers?turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau. That came as news to the ATF agents in Group VII.
    Issa's claim that the ATF is using the Fast and Furious scandal to limit gun rights seems, to put it charitably, far-fetched. Meanwhile, Issa and other lawmakers say they want ATF to stanch the deadly tide of guns, widely implicated in the killing of 47,000 Mexicans in the drug-war violence of the past five years. But the public bludgeoning of the ATF has had the opposite effect. From 2010, when Congress began investigating, to 2011, gun seizures by Group VII and the ATF's three other groups in Phoenix dropped by more than 90%.


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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Fast and Furious' top suspects—Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau.
    More on this??? Anyone???


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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    This is related to the 'Fast & Furious' story:


    Information deemed “maliciously harmful to government”
    ‘Obama Truth Team’ Orders GoDaddy To Shut Down Website

    A political website that contained stinging criticism of the Obama administration and its handling of the Fast and Furious scandal was ordered to be shut down by the Obama campaign’s ‘Truth Team’, according to private investigator Douglas Hagmann, who was told by ISP GoDaddy his site contained information that was “maliciously harmful to individuals in the government.”
    Hagmann, CEO of Hagmann Investigative Services, Inc., a private investigative agency serving a roster of Fortune 500 clients, was given 48 hours by GoDaddy to find a new home for his website before it was deleted.
    Hagmann was told the reason for the shut down was because the website featured “morally objectionable” material. After GoDaddy refused to identify the complainant, only saying that it was not “any official government agency,” further investigation by Hagmann revealed that the order came from a group tied to Obama campaign headquarters.
    Speaking with the chief investigator in the GoDaddy Abuse division, Hagmann discovered, “Ultimately it was found that the complaint originated ostensibly with a group associated with the campaign to re-elect Barack Hussein Obama.”
    Turning to his contacts within government, Hagmann then spoke with another source who confirmed that the ‘Obama Truth Team’ was responsible for the shut down order.
    “I’m laying this right on the doorstep of the Obama Truth Team,” said Hagmann.
    The ‘Obama Truth Team’ is an outreach of the Obama 2012 re-election campaign that urges supporters to “help fight back against the attacks on President Obama and his record” by reporting supposed misrepresentations and lies. However, as ABC News reported, the ‘Truth Team’ has mischaracterized legitimate criticism as smears in an effort to chill dissent against Obama. It has also been caught fibbing on a number of other occasions.
    The same methods of intimidation were also very much in force during the 2008 campaign season. Under the guise of the ‘Obama Truth Squad’, influential public figures in Missouri including St. Louis County Circuit Attorney Bob McCulloch, St. Louis City Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce, and Jefferson County Sheriff Glenn Boyer, promised to “respond quickly, forcefully, and aggressively” to “lies” about Obama.
    As ABC News highlighted, this helped to create a chilling atmosphere in which “Missourians might be afraid of being prosecuted for criticizing Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill.”
    This is by no means the first time political websites have been shut down on a whim with no due process after official pressure is brought to bear on ISPs.


    We are all ignorant but we do not all ignore the same thing!
    Let's share our knowledge starting from the heart...

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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    I'm not really sure of the relevance of the above. We've already proven the level of distortion related to this. Unless the objectionable material is true, then the above is a non-issue. Any links to the objectionable material itself?

    Addit:
    http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/
    From this guy's site:
    The clues pointed to Obama’s “truth teams.”
    <-Not evidence

    Last edited by Dorok; 27th June 2012 at 19:42.

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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    so ok.. why is there a scandel then.. why was it not reported that this was happening..

    basically they are saying that operation fast and the furious was just them tracking how these guns where being bought and moved accross the boarder using holes in the laws on the books ..and that they where doing what they normally do and turning some of the guys who where buying the guns into informants ..

    if this is the case .. then why didn't they go public with what was going on when the agent was killed .. instead of trying to hide who knew about it and when ..

    instead your hiding things and making things look more shady by denying who knew what and when.. and then slapping executive privledge on the documents ..

    if there is nothing to cover up..than why act like there is a cover up ..


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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    There is a scandal b/c some members of Congress have a mission to take down the president. There only appears to be a cover-up because the information doesn't fit the take down agenda (i.e. there must be something else). What IF Executive Privilege is actually being used to prevent damage to real case - like the FBI being the buyers...


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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorok View Post
    There is a scandal b/c some members of Congress have a mission to take down the president. There only appears to be a cover-up because the information doesn't fit the take down agenda (i.e. there must be something else). What IF Executive Privilege is actually being used to prevent damage to real case - like the FBI being the buyers...
    if there was nothing wrong done on the governments part.. if they wher just monitoring the situation to put together a case for a change in the rules .. then ..

    the problem is the simle answer that..we where monitoring a situation whe legal buyers wher buying large amounts of guns legally ..and legally selling them to other people who where running them over the border .. we where in the process of turning some of these people into informants ..so we could know what was going on in detail.

    and tyhis is the case that should have been made day one ..when it came to light..if thats the truth why hide the truth ..


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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Sorry...to me "the government" means everyone: ATF, FBI, Congress, the President, etc. So I'm not sure what points you are trying to make.

    Some in Congress, i.e Issa & other GOP members, are trying to spin this into something it is not, i.e. a scandal, in order to discredit the President. The irony is that, as you pointed out, what went on was 'legal' once federal prosecutors declined the cases given to them by the ATF. Also, the GOP is trying to spin this as a Democratic party effort to limit gun rights while, at the same time, the lax laws are what is preventing prosecution of real gun traffickers. The fact that the FBI were the buyers is something NEW and very troubling. The fact that the President used Executive Privilege (for the 1st time!) in itself indicates nothing. What the GOP and Issa will likely find out is that the 'scandal' will not make the President look bad.


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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    The GOP is desperate to show that Obama is going to take guns away. In fact, he has done nothing in the service of gun control because he is too afraid of the NRA. The NRA's core purpose is not to protect gun rights, it is to rile up the masses to keep the GOP in power. The GOP uses gun control, abortion and gay marriage as hot button issues to manipulate a certain demographic which was coined "the moral majority" in the Reagan era. In reality, the GOP could care less about those issues. They use them to keep the GOP in power and, in turn, corporations use the GOP to stay in power. Not that the Democrats or Obama are not a huge disappointment. Just pointing out the way the GOP manufactures fears of gun control.

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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    one of these days, i'm gonna be surprised...
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorok View Post
    http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...furious-truth/

    I implore everyone interested in this issue to read this piece completely. The 'news' has been covering only distorted 'talking points'.

    Here are some tidbits (since the article is long):



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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Here we go...the real news.
    Quote Originally Posted by robert View Post
    This is related to the 'Fast & Furious' story:


    Information deemed “maliciously harmful to government”
    ‘Obama Truth Team’ Orders GoDaddy To Shut Down Website






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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    good question and the answers are varied why no honest information is forthcoming:
    the good guys don't want government covert actions subjected to public scrutiny.
    some of the bad guys profit from the illegal trade.
    some of the bad guys just don't care that there is a balance of good/bad flow in the border area. Fairness and public justice is not in their quiver of social tools.
    Quote Originally Posted by Odah View Post
    so ok.. why is there a scandel then.. why was it not reported that this was happening..

    basically they are saying that operation fast and the furious was just them tracking how these guns where being bought and moved accross the boarder using holes in the laws on the books ..and that they where doing what they normally do and turning some of the guys who where buying the guns into informants ..

    if this is the case .. then why didn't they go public with what was going on when the agent was killed .. instead of trying to hide who knew about it and when ..

    instead your hiding things and making things look more shady by denying who knew what and when.. and then slapping executive privledge on the documents ..

    if there is nothing to cover up..than why act like there is a cover up ..



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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Can we all just agree that infowars is BS and discard it as propaganda? More like misinfowars. Everything I have ever seen there has been designed to drum up fears and make conservatives look like heros. The agenda is so obvious, yet so many still lap it up.

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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    here is the thing.. both the democrats and the republican are corrupted by the same corporate money ...neith part is for the common ..or the working man ..they are for the corperations who can donate the most money... the offer them million dollar a year jobs when they leave office ..

    he who makes the rules gets the gold ..

    both parties suck at this point ..the only time you may ever see obama is when he is going into a 40,000 a plate fundraiser near you ..


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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Yeah, they are both corrupted, but it is the GOP's deregulation policies that most benefit corporations. Why do you think they want to dismantle the EPA, expand corporate tax loopholes and maintain corporate "personhood"? I agree though, they both suck.

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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Quote Originally Posted by Dex View Post
    Yeah, they are both corrupted, but it is the GOP's deregulation policies that most benefit corporations. Why do you think they want to dismantle the EPA, expand corporate tax loopholes and maintain corporate "personhood"? I agree though, they both suck.
    are you kidding me .. come hither little one and let the epa tax you for poluting the earth with every breath you take ..

    never mind that most of the problems we are in didn't get bad because of deregulation .. it got bad because the regulators where to busy watching porn than those they where suppose to regulate ..fannie me freddie mac .. where a big part of the housing bubble and where protected by the democrats ..

    and when there is so much regulation ..that your best option is to move operations out of the country ..hows that helpful..just look at the green energy plant the government has been giving companies money to build that get shut down and moved to china ..

    you want a nation of oppressive legislation.. then enjoy when the government starts telling you what you can and can't feed your kids.. then telling you just how hot you can heat your house and how hot you can cool your house ...enjoy..

    so the republicans are raising a stink about this.. wouldn't you if it looked like your opponents seemed to be running guns to mexican drug cartels ..

    this is the government we have and if you are pro regulation on business..you believe that money in hand is really on what the government has allowed you to keep..and that the role of government is to take a seemingly fair amount from everyone ..

    psst you know why the rich and the coorperation get the really nice loopholes ... so they have lots of money to give politicians ..

    the only faith i have in the current system we have is that is doomed to collapse ..


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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    the problem with a very strick or excessive regulation regime .. is that many time it gets selectivly enforced .. do you know the government regularly raids buisnesses and throws people in jail.. who run importing businesses for violating obsure laws in other countries that those countries forget are on the books and really don't enforce ..


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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    look .. though i tend more too the conservative angle.. the big busness republicans piss me off ..and the cristian suck ups piss me off .. it annoys me that polliticians have to fit a zealous mold to get elected today .. and they can't be the old style politicians who fought with each other on the floor of the capitol during the day ..and drank together at night ..

    her i am total open to the probability this was just a badly named intel gathering operation to make a future case for strickter gun controls on certain types of guns ..i am just wondering if this was the case ..why did they not just admit to it.. it was not a watergate level thing.. it was monataring the loopholes in the current laws that need to get closed ..

    if the argued the case when this first came to light ..most people do have common sense and the laws could have been changed..

    but now it looks like the atf had set up an operation to purposly move the guns to highlight a hole in the law ...which as an american.. i don't want to believe.. but the more hiding.. the more it looks like something shady was going on ..


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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Assigning an agency to try to prevent industry from poisoning our water and air is not oppressive. Who do you think will hold them accountable? Cowboys with guns? Seriously.

    Enjoy every sandwich. -- Warren Zevon
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    Every kind of ignorance in the world all results from not realizing that our perceptions are gambles. We believe what we see and then we believe our interpretation of it, we don't even know we are making an interpretation most of the time. We think this is reality. ? Robert Anton Wilson

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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    May I present (again--I did a thread on this at the time it came out) the research done by Sheryl Attkinson of CBS:

    Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations
    Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.
    PICTURES: ATF "Gunwalking" scandal timeline

    In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

    ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...n-regulations/


    New Fast and Furious docs released by White House

    http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showt...t=fast+furious

    "Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives." John Lennon

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    Prolific Member Odah's Avatar
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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Quote Originally Posted by Dex View Post
    Assigning an agency to try to prevent industry from poisoning our water and air is not oppressive. Who do you think will hold them accountable? Cowboys with guns? Seriously.
    are you enjoying you 60 watt lightbulbs ..sence it illegale to buy 100 watt lightbulbs any more in the Us ..and remember not to break compact florecent bulbs.. the epa wants you to use instead of incandecint bulbs.. at least where gloves and be safe cleaning it up as not to ingest any of the mercury in side ..

    there is a role for the epa.. but allowing it to write it's own regulations ..

    again the problem with the system is that zealots get put in charge .. it conservative or liberal ..and we all knowhow that is working for us ..

    so you get the people heading the epa who feel it's there place to do something about climate change ..or gun control.. so you inspect shooting ranges and find them for having high level of lead in their soil ..

    how bought for the poor smucks with big yards that have water settle on the land after heavy rain.. and get hit with a wetland designation ..


  31. #22
    Prolific Member Odah's Avatar
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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    I think it was one company that had sold like 30 coal fired power plants because it built new power plands .. then lobbied the epa or congress to changes the regulations in a way that would get the coal plants shut down because they where now competitors ..

    i want clean air and clean water.. for the most part the us has cleaned up a lot ..and there are many ways in the next 20 years that if the government turned to support new trends that we could cut down a lot of the pollution we do put out ..


  32. #23
    Prolific Member Dex's Avatar
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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Sorry Odah, I'm not following your logic. Mine is common sense, IMHO: some regulation is necessary. These greedy psychopathic corps are not going to regulate themselves. If we are going to debate that point, this discussion is going to go in circles and I just don't have the energy. Enjoy your poisoned water and air. Over and out.

    Enjoy every sandwich. -- Warren Zevon
    The future is unwritten. -- Joe Strummer
    Let love rule. -- Lenny Kravitz
    Every kind of ignorance in the world all results from not realizing that our perceptions are gambles. We believe what we see and then we believe our interpretation of it, we don't even know we are making an interpretation most of the time. We think this is reality. ? Robert Anton Wilson

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    Senior Member Dorok's Avatar
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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Let's get back on topic please.


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    Senior Member Dorok's Avatar
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    Re: The real story about 'Fast and Furious' - ATF & Guns to Mexican gangs

    Quote Originally Posted by pillaroflight View Post
    May I present (again--I did a thread on this at the time it came out) the research done by Sheryl Attkinson of CBS:

    Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations


    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...n-regulations/


    New Fast and Furious docs released by White House

    http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showt...t=fast+furious
    That CBS link doesn't work. I'd like to compare their sources and stories to those in the article I posted.


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