A new fracking world

[Odah]

Hello,
Now i know there are a lot of people on these board who hate fracking .. but the options are either the Us uses less power .. has much higher fuel prices , turns to using coal more or builds more nuke plants .. After all the obama adminitration has been pumping billions into a gree economy that is failing to go any where ..

With fracking if we eye the impact closely .. we can soon just have no need to invade middle eastern countries for their oil ..cause we have our own here.. china also has vast supplies that they are starting to tap into.. so there will be no energy war between china an the Us ..

Also if it is being pulled out of the ground one places refined a few hundred miles away and sent somewhere else ..there is very little chance for speculature to mess with the cost of oil .. and the watse involved in shipping oil from one side of the earth to the other goes away .. and the rest of the world pretty much get to ignore the middle east after they lose the only thing they have value for to the rest of the world ..

remember though we did not move from horse and buggy travel to cars .. because of a lack of horses and the american whaling fleet didn't collape because of a lack of whales ( it was the cheaper to run foreign fleets ) ..

we are about to develop and or use tech that will greatly reduce our power use over all in the next 5-10 years ..then by 2020 solar panels will be much more efficient that today and much cheeper , with new and better ways to heat and cool our homes ..and more food will be grown locally so there won't be the fuel used growing and shipping cirn and raising livestock ..which accounts for 70 percent of water and fossil fuel use ..

and if you build natural gas electricity plants close to cities and build building farms close to these plants .. so you pump the co2 emisions into the growing areas .. because you know co2 is plant food .. you get a much greater benifit ..and your not shipping food and electricity from thousand of miles away ..

already with the new supply we can stop turning 30 percent of the corn crop into ethenol ..and use that to maybe .. prevent people around the world from starving do to the comming food shortages ..

In any case this is a temporary solition because more and better method of proding electricity will come online in the next few decades ..

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[magamud]

Odah,
Many get lost down the rabbit hole of the lesser of two evils. The natural progression of a world is to access free energy as to not abuse the planet for power. More specific is the analogy that oil is indeed the blood of the planet. Our leaders have killed Tesla tech and covered up the truth.

Such is the world.....

[Dex]

What are your sources? Fracker PR? The frackers are transnational companies with no interest in US energy independence. What makes you think the gas will stay in US? What you describe is the fantasy they want us to buy.

Do you know anything about the many many communities where fracking has poisoned the water? Do you have some evidence that they've eliminated this unacceptable outcome?

What industry puppet news outlet are you getting your info from? You don't have to say, but I urge you to strongly question that source and all of its info as a matter of your own discernment development.

[Odah]

What are your sources? Fracker PR? The frackers are transnational companies with no interest in US energy independence. What makes you think the gas will stay in US? What you describe is the fantasy they want us to buy.

Do you know anything about the many many communities where fracking has poisoned the water? Do you have some evidence that they've eliminated this unacceptable outcome?

What industry puppet news outlet are you getting your info from? You don't have to say, but I urge you to strongly question that source and all of its info as a matter of your own discernment development.

the option in the current way thing are is more coal mining and building coal fire plants .. or just blacking out Us cities on purpose when electricty use is to high .. lets make sure there is only enough energy for the rich to be nice and cozy and the poor to cook in there little apartments ..

It's not ideal but it's good as a gap untill we get better cleaner methods out there to use ..and there is a demand for those cleaner methods ..but again the key is reducing use and reducing waste ..

you know though it is totally ok to get our oil from countries that abuse and murder ytheir populations ..and deny them their rights so we can have nice cheep oil .. maybe seeing the danage and the effects at home gives us the motivation to do something about it and demand better cheeper energy systems be developed ..

we had no problem in the Us while our government was supporting dictators and despots but now that our government is squashing our rights and all we whine .. well we need oil right now .. and we can't depend on forien sources for it .. because the billions being wasted on solar and wind companies that isn't paying off ..isn't paying off ..

again this is a temporary alternative to the world current needs for power.. because as i see it with the tech comming online we simply won't need it as much ..and we certainly don't need to care about supplies from the rest of the world if we have all we ever need here ..

fracking ..advances in automation .. 3d printing . nano manufacturing .. cheep solar ..cheep production tools that allow people to do more work at home and less work in a city ..with fresh healthy food being grown near by ..and power generated near by so your not dependent on a fragile grid ..homes built of sturdy materials that can be grown in a factory instead of cutting down trees ..

it all fits together ..but if we live another 20 years most of us will see a great reduction in use of fossil fuels ..and not because of some government push ..it will be because better systems come online

[Odah]

so for now we turn to fracking .. and in doing so we make natural gas plant's cheeper to run than coal plant and cleaner to run.. so we shut down coal plants because they can't compete .. so less need to mine coal .. year after year .. then as we turn to moving food production closer to cities in controlled environment with no need for fossile fuel based fertilizers ..and less need to transport the food .. great distances ..

then we reduce our use of electricity through more efficiant aplliances and better ways to heat and cool our homes ..and more affordable way to produce our own power as solar cells become cheeper ..

then we turn more away from using fossile fuels at all ..with cold fusion , geothermal production ,and tidal generation of power . with a much more decentalized grid ..that doesn't lose 50% of the power generated as wasted heat

[Dex]

Thank you for elaborating on your fantasy, Odah. You answered none of my questions.

Also, how are we supposed to grow all this "fresh healthy food" if our water is poisoned by fracking?

For the conspiracy-minded: with out clean soil and water to grow food, how is anyone supposed to live outside the "control paradigm"? How convenient that fracking makes growing our own food a challenge? Hmmmm.

[alienHunter]

Whenever that comes up (at work)...I throw in my obligatory, "That's fracked up!"

[Dex]

Whenever that comes up (at work)...I throw in my obligatory, "That's fracked up!"

Just curious AH, how does the oil and gas industry justify the destruction they bring to places like Nigeria (and Pennsylvania)? I ask because you seem to be in the know.

[sandy]

Hi Odah,

You are attempting to solve the energy problem with the same mindset that created it I believe. I'm surprised by your advocating Gas and fracking as a solution even a temporary one!

If we as a civilization will settle for this "temporary solution" then how many more years will it take to implement Free Energy?

The masses must wake up to the reality of Free Energy and what it means to our planet. It is everywhere, it is here NOW, and it is the answer to all the ails Mother Earth and all her creatures, fauna, environment and civilization.

We CANNOT settle for less anymore!!

[Dex]

Hi Sandy

I appreciate what you are saying about fracking. I don't know much about free energy, but I've often heard it said that FE will clean up the environment. I can see that it would prevent pollution, but I don't understand how it would, say, clean toxic fracking chemicals from water or remove radiation from soil. Again, I'm ignorant and curious about FE (not trying to discredit it).

[Odah]

Thank you for elaborating on your fantasy, Odah. You answered none of my questions.

Also, how are we supposed to grow all this "fresh healthy food" if our water is poisoned by fracking?

For the conspiracy-minded: with out clean soil and water to grow food, how is anyone supposed to live outside the "control paradigm"? How convenient that fracking makes growing our own food a challenge? Hmmmm.

I can go into the tech comming online to produce clean and fresh drinking water from desalinating ocean water that will come about from nano tech ..without the need for massive amounts of burning oil ..and considering most of humanity lives close to the ocean it will be quite easy to get everyone drinkable water and healthy food because there will be plenty of water to use to grow food .. and this is tech coming out in a few years .. along with more ways to generate electricity .. cheaply

so compared to the problems with nuke plants .. and the environmental damage from digging coal and burning it .. and the fact that alternative power is just not ready .. there are choices to make now ..

what positive effect will it have on the world if the Us suddenly does not need to import any oil.. and then turns around and rapidly cuts it's use of oil ..i won't say there is no damage from fracking .. i am saying that we are much more willing to do something different if the damage effects us .. instead of arabs and african's ..

fracking causes a small number of small earthquakes, additional contamination of ground water.. and the very inconviented but rare explosion during showers .. with other issues ..but we can monitor and limit these effects ..

tell me which is better getting it from fracking .. or turning half the corn crop we will get this year into ethenol while people will starve around the world because food prices are higher than they can afford .. that is not a fantasy .. but who cares if they eat or not .. right ..

[Dex]

Ummm, your logic escapes me Odah. Are you serious? We are supposed to farm polluted soil with desalinated water shipped from the coast and we are supposed to finally see the devastation of the gas industry when it poisons us instead of Nigerians? Furthermore, fracking is the only choice to avert starvation?

Who the frack are you getting this info and logic from? Look, we've all argued points that fall apart. There's no shame in admitting you are off course here. We will still love you.

[Odah]

Hi Odah,

You are attempting to solve the energy problem with the same mindset that created it I believe. I'm surprised by your advocating Gas and fracking as a solution even a temporary one!

If we as a civilization will settle for this "temporary solution" then how many more years will it take to implement Free Energy?

The masses must wake up to the reality of Free Energy and what it means to our planet. It is everywhere, it is here NOW, and it is the answer to all the ails Mother Earth and all her creatures, fauna, environment and civilization.

We CANNOT settle for less anymore!!

i just see fracking as the equivkllent of trying to dominate the typewriter business in 1990..or becoming building a huge music chain in the year 2000 ..or buying the million dollar house in 2007 .. that is now worth 200k ..

all the economic indicators i can find have us in much worse condition economically than in 2007 before the crash ..and we have used up all the options ..the Us will simple not have the ability to borrow the money to import oil when this next series of big piles of horse shit hits the fan .. and we will need the oil from fracking .. it doesn't matter who is president now or who will win in the november ..the events that we are about to go through .. if we don't rapidly start to localize everything from currency to food production to manufacturing to energy production .. in the next few years ..those who do will thrive those who don't .. will self destruct ..

this drought is destroying a big chunk of our food supply. all around the country huge outages that strech for days or weeks after one thunder storm are becoming regular , and the fed ,other central bankers, and the big bank are engaged in full scale open fraud to keep interest rates low ..to keep governments and other people borrowing so they can continue to print money ..

so do you want to find out what it will be like to live in a Us where you wake up one day with no food in the stores , no fuel in the gas station , no power in your house , and no value to your money ..5 years ago.. that was totaly unimaginable ..

today ?

[alienHunter]

well, interesting question because my coworker (we started a week apart) is from Nigeria...and i used to have an friend/acquaintance from Nigeria who actually went home to talk with his father (who was hooked up with the government) about a oil cleaning product that i was marketing at the time (long before i was connected to the industry)...he said the officials showed zero interest.

It's like the elephant in my room...nobody talks about it...but your question evokes the same guilt feelings that i had when I first worked for the defense industry. But i do think people recognize that some of the industry practices are extremely destructive such as fracking. They just nod their heads without laughing whenever i tell the same joke over and over. It's part of life...we just have to believe that the wanton greed and evil is not representative of the industry and not part and parcel of all of it...yeah, I know...uh right...

Just curious AH, how does the oil and gas industry justify the destruction they bring to places like Nigeria (and Pennsylvania)? I ask because you seem to be in the know.

[Dex]

Odah...and no clean water in the well? How does this work for localized food production again?

And btw, fracking produces gas, not oil. Also, our cars, etc are not built to run on this kind of gas.

You are presenting fracking as the only option to "save" us. Frack or die. The reality for many (incidentally poor) Americas is frack AND die.

[Odah]

Ummm, your logic escapes me Odah. Are you serious? We are supposed to farm polluted soil with desalinated water shipped from the coast and we are supposed to finally see the devastation of the gas industry when it poisons us instead of Nigerians? Furthermore, fracking is the only choice to avert starvation?

Who the frack are you getting this info and logic from? Look, we've all argued points that fall apart. There's no shame in admitting you are off course here. We will still love you.

hahaha .. we can't farm dry soil with no water ..2000 miles away from where people eat it .. using oil pulled out of the ground half way around the world costing 10 $ a gallon of gas ..to run the farming equipment ..and fuel the trucks ...in a world environment that is no longer stable .. weather wise or economically ..

we have to grow food closer to where it is consumed .. we have to move a lot of our food production indoors , and we also have to do more thing to produce energy close to home ..using less fossile fuel .. fracking moves the source of the oil and gas close to where it is used ..but it's a temporary part of the equasion ..

and do you really think people will use polluted soils in indoire farming .. indore farming will be used because you don't need chemical pesticeds and fertilizers ..

[Dex]

AH, what you are describing is a psychopathic industry run by psychopathic people and their human tools, characterized by NO empathy - who just shrug their shoulders and think about what's for dinner. All "very nice" guys, I'm sure. And the occupants of the Nigerian Ogonilands poisoned by Shell...oh well...sucks for them...I've got mine.

I'm NOT trying to make you feel guilty, just trying to understand where y'all are coming from because it scares the shit out of me.

[Dex]

Odah: now we have to farm indoors? Really? Stop and THINK what you are saying. All this for a few more years of "cheap" dirty energy? At what cost? AND why do you think it will not be EXPORTED? Also, our economy is dependent on OIL. Not the kind of "natural gas" derived from fracking.

[Odah]

Odah: now we have to farm indoors? Really? Stop and THINK what you are saying. All this for a few more years of energy? At what cost? AND why do you think it will not be EXPORTED? Also, our economy is dependent on OIL. Not the kind of "natural gas" derived from fracking.

our economy is dependent on oil because 70 percent of it is used in agriculture .. between farming fertilizeing .. spraying pesticides ..and then trasporting and processing into ingredients that get trasported somewhere else to get tuyrn into product that get shipped to a warehouse that then get shipped to a store ..where you go in and buy said product ..

then there are the power plants that ship power over a grid that loses 3o percent of the power to heat lost in transport ..and uses coal oil,natural gas and nuke and hydro power to generate it with the emissions going into the air .. and the other damage ..

So build natural gass plants close to population centers .. build building farms around the plants ..generate power for the cities with much less loss ..use the pipe the carbon dioxide into the surrounding building farms where the crops use it as food .. bring desalinated water in for the crops ..because most population centers are near the cost ..

So you are growing food year round .. and shipping the fresh food 10 to 20 miles away into the cities or populations .. instead of 2-3 thousand miles away ..

Eventually as we get better free energy and renewable energy we don't need the natural gas plants .. but by moving food production close to where it is eaten .. you eliminate most of where you currently use your fossil fuels and your fresh water .. and you cut the pesticed ,fetilizer and soil loss ..and you can let a lot of current farm land go back to nature ..

[Dex]

Odah. Do you understand that fracking poisons soil and water? You have an elaborate vision of how life could be. Good for you. We need visionaries. I too believe we need to localize food production. Yay for that. But if your vision is built on fracking, it is a fantasy.

I would say that you should be asking the frackers to come to your town because you are not worried about your water and eagerly anticipate how it will revitalize your local economy. Unfortunately, I live close enough, regionally, to "benefit" as well. Fracking is acceptable NOWHERE.

[sandy]

Hi Odah,

We are on our way to a paradigm change in energy and the world falling apart is all part of the process. People will not acquiesce to a new energy paradigm until there is nothing left to do but change.

Free Energy has been suppressed since Tesla>>>over 60 years. It is in the air all around us but needs the hidden technology to tap it. It is free and no oligarchy will be able to charge for the energy needs thus it will change the world's scarcity paradigm!

It would only take about 10 years of transition to see a world free of competition to one of cooperation and those 10 years would be filled with employment everywhere to accommodate all changes needed to facilitate Free Energy.

Water desalinization plants, greenhouses and green lands everywhere possible, vehicles and machines run on FE and no more pollution, toxins addressed around the world, no nuclear plants or energy required and become obsolete, Oceans become healthy again>>>>>>>>>the world is run by energy, all energy is frequency waves when broken down, including humans, thus those who control the energy control the world. I believe as we become more spiritual and loving we will realize that Free Energy is part of our Divine Right.

Many people are afraid that Free Energy will be the world's demise because of it's awesome power and maybe we don't have it released as yet because the world is not evolved spiritually and loving enough to use it for good only. I don't believe that as once the masses are no longer literally tied to a hamster wheel trying to make a living and just survive their creative juices start flowing with all the possibilities and opportunities that lay before their very feet and eyes.

This is why Free Energy will free Mother Earth and her creatures. No more enslavement and with a free world just think of the creations and inventions that can come forward and out of suppression. We need to start creating such a world by imaging and visualizing what a world full of the bountifulness of clean water, healthy agriculture and foods, clean air, clean energy will be like. What's that saying.........Energy flows where energy goes~~~~If you can't think it or dream of it how can one make it happen!!

Dex I don't fully understand the full dynamics of Free Energy but I know it is real and we have it suppressed!! I follow Wade Frazer's Thread on Avalon. Scott started one here for Wade and it went no where I tried to get people to help me build a vision of a world with Free Energy and it went no where

Until people begin to understand that Free Energy is the answer to changing our world's scarcity paradigm to one of abundance it will not come to fruition. We need to start believing that WE ARE THE CHANGE that needs to happen to change the world we now live in.

If more people began to educate themselves about Free Energy and believe it is real versus debate and dissect what we do have then maybe we could build a field of dreams that would come to be paradise right here on earth.

[Odah]

It would only take about 10 years of transition to see a world free of competition to one of cooperation and those 10 years would be filled with employment everywhere to accommodate all changes needed to facilitate Free Energy.

Water desalinization plants, greenhouses and green lands everywhere possible, vehicles and machines run on FE and no more pollution, toxins addressed around the world, no nuclear plants or energy required and become obsolete, Oceans become healthy again>>>>>>>>>the world is run by energy, all energy is frequency waves when broken down, including humans, thus those who control the energy control the world. I believe as we become more spiritual and loving we will realize that Free Energy is part of our Divine Right.

I can't stop fracking.. it is here to stay it just won't be here for long .. i just see how it fits into a long term transition from the way we use energy now .. it is not ideal it isn't the best .. but it is part of the change .. withing 10 or 15 year even without free energy we will be using a lot leff fossil fuels and be less dependent on this massive wastefull beast of a system we have now ..

If we sat here a year ago and said that because of the fukishima disaster .. japan would shut all it nuke plants down within a year .. we would have all laughed .. but i believe they have ..

Worldwide mother earth will no longer support the way we grow food .. we need to adapt really fast .. and that adaptation means we move food production in doors and close or inside population centers .. It's there is is happening ..people are already doing it between farming inside what where abandoned building to farming on rooftops .. to where ever they can try something ..

and it is happening at a time when food and feul prices are climbing.. and people are also looking for different ways to supply their own electric power when the grid goes down .. which is happening more and more ..

when you hit the dark switch enough times and it fails to turn on the lights .. when it starts costing 2 days worth of pay to drive to work.. when a very long list of thing we took for granted .. no longer are dependable .. you begin to look for other ways to do it

[Dex]

Dude, it's very simple: Don't shit where you eat. Period.

I don't have the luxury of a belief in reincarnation and a coming golden age to comfort me, so my reasoning is based on different assumptions. I have a beautiful daughter and I want her to live in a healthy world. Simple as that. IMHO, everything else is just mental and spiritual gymnastics to rationalize the poisoning of our water, soil and air. That's where I'm coming from.

[Chuck]

sorry... couldn't resist



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LOV4JZdxs

[Odah]

Dude, it's very simple: Don't shit where you eat. Period.

I don't have the luxury of a belief in reincarnation and a coming golden age to comfort me, so my reasoning is based on different assumptions. I have a beautiful daughter and I want her to live in a healthy world. Simple as that. IMHO, everything else is just mental and spiritual gymnastics to rationalize the poisoning of our water, soil and air. That's where I'm coming from.

I am from mass .. where people are all for alternative energy .. unless of course you want to put windmills somewhere near them .. where people want electric cars.. just they don't want any of the ways we produce electricity ..

there are dangers and we should not frack everywhere and we should figure out methods to increase the safety of fracking ..don't allow the chemicles being used to stay secret .. test and test until we find the safest solution to use .. letting frackers put anything they want in the ground to get the most gas is a bad idea ..

the epa is there for regulation and monitoring .. maybe they should do some of that now ..before some school house full of gas filled water explodes .. but it doesn't mean we shouldn't frack at all ..