Your Children Are Not Your Children

[Jenci]

Thanks to AlienHunter for the inspiration to post this thread. He posted this in a totally unrelated thread.

I read something once that kind of upset me regarding this...not because of the truth or falsity but how it was asking that we view our children. I agreed with the author about us not 'owning' our children but I also felt that to not view our children as uniquely 'ours' abraded against what i consider my 'unique' relationship to my daughter.

http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showt...8049#post68049

I've been thinking about this for quite some time. I had also read something about our children not belonging to us. I must admit that my initial reaction was to dismiss it as nonsense. Of course, my son belonged to me! Most parents understand the intense bond that you have with your child with the need to nurture and protect.

Although I dismissed this quote that I had heard, it stayed with me and over my awakening process in the last couple of years I have come to not only understand what it means but to believe it to be true.

I still have the same bond with my son but I no longer see him as belonging to me. I see him more being here, coming through me. He is his own person and I am here to enable him to be able to grow up to be that individual. I suppose I could say that I am fulfilling a job role that I have been assigned.


Anyway here is the quote which started off this thinking for me.

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Kahlil Gibran

Jeanette

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[alienHunter]

yeah, Gibran was an amazing philosopher.

Thanks to AlienHunter for the inspiration to post this thread. He posted this in a totally unrelated thread.



I've been thinking about this for quite some time. I had also read something about our children not belonging to us. I must admit that my initial reaction was to dismiss it as nonsense. Of course, my son belonged to me! Most parents understand the intense bond that you have with your child with the need to nurture and protect.

Although I dismissed this quote that I had heard, it stayed with me and over my awakening process in the last couple of years I have come to not only understand what it means but to believe it to be true.

I still have the same bond with my son but I no longer see him as belonging to me. I see him more being here, coming through me. He is his own person and I am here to enable him to be able to grow up to be that individual. I suppose I could say that I am fulfilling a job role that I have been assigned.


Anyway here is the quote which started off this thinking for me.




Jeanette

---------- Post added at 12:38 ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 ----------

to add...what I read suggested it was better to view that relationship as you would a brother or sister...naw, that just wasn't working for me. I love my family but my daughter is...well, my daughter.

Thanks to AlienHunter for the inspiration to post this thread. He posted this in a totally unrelated thread.



I've been thinking about this for quite some time. I had also read something about our children not belonging to us. I must admit that my initial reaction was to dismiss it as nonsense. Of course, my son belonged to me! Most parents understand the intense bond that you have with your child with the need to nurture and protect.

Although I dismissed this quote that I had heard, it stayed with me and over my awakening process in the last couple of years I have come to not only understand what it means but to believe it to be true.

I still have the same bond with my son but I no longer see him as belonging to me. I see him more being here, coming through me. He is his own person and I am here to enable him to be able to grow up to be that individual. I suppose I could say that I am fulfilling a job role that I have been assigned.


Anyway here is the quote which started off this thinking for me.




Jeanette

[Jenci]

to add...what I read suggested it was better to view that relationship as you would a brother or sister...naw, that just wasn't working for me. I love my family but my daughter is...well, my daughter.

That doesn't work for me either.

My son is still my son, he is just not MINE.

Jeanette

[Janos]

Of course your children aren't your children. You signed them over at birth in most cases, and now they're wards of the state. Sheesh.

[alienHunter]

Hi Janos,

As a father that divorced when my daughter was a year and a half old I can assure you that if 'government' had ever attempted to get between my daughter and I, you would have seen me on the evening news.

Of course your children aren't your children. You signed them over at birth in most cases, and now they're wards of the state. Sheesh.

[alienHunter]

Hi Jenci,

I completely agree with you, it is a job with the description for a guide, not a dictator. Too many parents fall into that abyss but it is promoted by most societies. It is terribly wrong and terribly devastating to all the souls residing in all those young bodies.

[fossileyesed]

awesome thread.
a native philosofy goes something like,take no more than will affect seven generation, ahead of you
they considered themselves as gaurdians of mother earth.
also they thought about children that thier own great grand children would probally never meet
now thats a philosofy.
i agree with janos on the legalese that seems to over ride our common sense

peace

[alienHunter]

Hi Fossileyesed,

well, if that's what Janos meant, I sure agree with him too and you...

awesome thread.
a native philosofy goes something like,take no more than will affect seven generation, ahead of you
they considered themselves as gaurdians of mother earth.
also they thought about children that thier own great grand children would probally never meet
now thats a philosofy.
i agree with janos on the legalese that seems to over ride our common sense

peace

---------- Post added at 13:35 ---------- Previous post was at 13:33 ----------

Hi Dex,

yes, you're right about that as well. I think the term I've read that describes that phenomena is way too harsh but it's called, emotional incest. Something we all need to be on guard against.

Is it ok that I tell my daughter that her mom's life mission is to teach the people around her the virtues of patience.

I think my mom believed I was here to teach her some kind of lesson on her spiritual path. Parents, please don't lay this trip on your kids, even if you believe it.

---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:35 ----------

Hi Reaver,

so true, which is why I think when we are around our children we have to be very aware and off 'autopilot' setting. Intended or not we can do much damage in that mode.

What can I say? Khalil the Mystic explained it in a nutshell. The problem is when people start to see children as property which is justified by some "selfless sacrifice" aka indoctrination/brainwashing. Sometimes you can see psychological tyranny going on within families disguised as love. You know it's quite funny to see the look on people's faces when you tell them that your mother didn't give life to you.

This is not to say you shouldn't care about your children, but to know where the boundaries are located. One moment you could be the loving guide and the next moment you could transform yourself into the fascist tyrant.

[reaver]

What can I say? Khalil the Mystic explained it in a nutshell. The problem is when people start to see children as property which is justified by some "selfless sacrifice" aka indoctrination/brainwashing. Sometimes you can see psychological tyranny going on within families disguised as love. You know it's quite funny to see the look on people's faces when you tell them that your mother didn't give life to you.

This is not to say you shouldn't care about your children, but to know where the boundaries are located. One moment you could be the loving guide and the next moment you could transform yourself into the fascist tyrant.

[Elva]

What can I say? Khalil the Mystic explained it in a nutshell. The problem is when people start to see children as property which is justified by some "selfless sacrifice" aka indoctrination/brainwashing. Sometimes you can see psychological tyranny going on within families disguised as love. You know it's quite funny to see the look on people's faces when you tell them that your mother didn't give life to you.

This is not to say you shouldn't care about your children, but to know where the boundaries are located. One moment you could be the loving guide and the next moment you could transform yourself into the fascist tyrant.

You hit the nail on the head for me in that post Reaver. I generally allow my daughter to be who she is with minimal control over her actions. I definitely guide firmly most of the time, rather than control.

She's a very lively child and I would worry about suppressing that energy.. it'd just manifest in her as a rebellious and self-destructive teenager/adult. Having said that, when I'm worn out and worn down, the fascist tyrant in me comes out... I now attribute that fascist tyrant in me to some repressed emotion from earlier in this life or one of my other lives (or it could just be the red hair and celtic blood... or maybe it's my r-complex, lol).

At least I'm aware of it and actively try to starve the beast and weaken it's hold over me.

[alienHunter]

Hi Elva,

Shame on you for being a human being...

[Going by]

What can I say? Khalil the Mystic explained it in a nutshell. The problem is when people start to see children as property which is justified by some "selfless sacrifice" aka indoctrination/brainwashing. Sometimes you can see psychological tyranny going on within families disguised as love. You know it's quite funny to see the look on people's faces when you tell them that your mother didn't give life to you.

This is not to say you shouldn't care about your children, but to know where the boundaries are located. One moment you could be the loving guide and the next moment you could transform yourself into the fascist tyrant.

Please Reaver, aA loving guide very rarely if ever transforms himself into a fascist tyrant. The guide has to be overwhelmingly tired to look like a tyrant and even there, he is not one yet. Why not a tyrant Jenci: because he is showing a tired human side of being, not a tyrant, just a tired and is giving the permission to the being in front of him to be tired as well sometimes and not be "perfect", just by being himself.

I do tell my daughter once in a while: "don't push it tonight, I am too tired" she does lay off me and she is allowed to tell me the same when she is tired and I do not agree with her.

In my view, You are either a loving guide, guiding someone for its better fulfillment following who the child/person is and wish (not following your own idea of what he should be or have) or your are real a tyrant, detached from your own reality and that of your child, wanting the child to be what you want him to be, not who he is (I purposefully use the terms what versus who).

[Dex]

I think my mom believed I was here to teach her some kind of lesson on her spiritual path. Parents, please don't lay this trip on your kids, even if you believe it.

[Elva]

I think my mom believed I was here to teach her some kind of lesson on her spiritual path. Parents, please don't lay this trip on your kids, even if you believe it.

Hi Dex

I agree that there should be boundaries around how parents share their own perspectives with their kids.. But I believe your mom was correct in her belief that you were placed in her life to teach her some lessons. I believe that everyone and every event in our lives has been put there to teach us something. However, you are also correct - children probably don't need the burden from their parents. I would be interested to know how your mom's belief affected you negatively, if you care to share.. no pressure!

My daughter has without doubt been put here to teach me a thing or two. I have learned a lot of what my lessons are through having her.. however I have not yet mastered the lessons, lol.

---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 15:05 ----------

Hi Elva,

Shame on you for being a human being...

lol.. problem is I have it in me to be quite a scary human being at times. Sometimes I yell so loud, I blow Elena's hair back!!

[Amer]

My son is still my son, he is just not MINE.

Jenci could you elaborate a little on this, because if I'm honest I don't follow- possessive adjective/possessive pronoun - it all boils down to the possessive!
I'm not clear as to the nuts and bolts of what you believed first and now how that has changed.

With regard to bringing up my son I'm more aware every day of what it means to be their primary educator/their filter for information/their bouncing pad.

Today he piped up in the car "Aliens don't exist Mom" after obviously hearing it from a cartoon. And I thought to myself immediately how easy it is to shape a young mind as to how you as parent would like them to think/expect them to think. Many parents would have just said yes son that's right. Many parents would have said no son that's wrong. I'm careful about giving absolutes to him, and so I said that's something we can't say for sure babe, and so we had the chat about the vast expanse of the universe, the possibilities that there are etc.,

Other times I'm stumped. We have a habit of saying "I love you to infinity and beyond." Then he asked me "But Mom do people really have love that's more than infinity?"

My honest answer in my heart was that I don't know.

My daughter has without doubt been put here to teach me a thing or two.

I don't know Elva about the idea of being intentionally put here, but I can safely say that since becoming a parent I have never been on such a steep and glorious learning curve

[Jenci]

Jenci could you elaborate a little on this, because if I'm honest I don't follow- possessive adjective/possessive pronoun - it all boils down to the possessive!
I'm not clear as to the nuts and bolts of what you believed first and now how that has changed.

Hi Amer,

He is mine as in he came out of my body, he is from me, he is my son and I am his mum, I love him.......

But he is not MINE as in my possession, something I own, someone for me to control.

I did used to think like he was my possession and I think many parents do (perhaps deliberate conditioning helping this on the way). Lots of parents still want to control their children's lives in their 20s, 30s, 40s etc.

These days I really relate to what is said in the quote I put in the OP. It sums up nicely how I feel about parenting.

Jeanette

[flower]

Ownership... implies a power struggle.


There is no such power struggle with my children.

i dont mean the typical teenage stuff..

There is no claim needed to be made for them to be my children. they just are.

[alienHunter]

Hi Celine,

not to inject a low brow thought here but that is one of the fundamental natural differences between being a mother and being a father.

Ownership... implies a power struggle.


There is no such power struggle with my children.

i dont mean the typical teenage stuff..

There is no claim needed to be made for them to be my children. they just are.

[Gigas]

You don't own your kids and they can be taken from you for little to no reason and farmed out to foster homeing. Your kid is a commodity on the stock exchange as is you. The only time you own your kids is when they cost the system money and the system looks to you for recovery cost. Otherwise those kids you love and think are yours, are property of the corporation called the untide states.

Three powers run this world, the empire of the vatican, inner london and the district of columbia in washington. They are all sovereign entities who run this planet and the people on it.

Go ahead, argue the case, its mute in the court of law. They will throw you away and take your kids you think belong to you.

Here is six minutes of the fact. Listen carefully to the horror of reality.

[Janos]

In this instance, everything Jordan Maxwell is saying is bang on. If you or your kids have a birth certificate. You're screwed.

[Dex]

Hi Elva

I guess what I am getting at is the need for parents to have boundaries with their children: spiritual, emotional and otherwise. It is probably a good topic for another thread -- how to encourage our children to think for themselves about spirituality while guiding and protecting them.

As far as where I'm coming from, my mother's spirituality was kind of disturbing to me at times, despite my parents' practice of not raising us any religion and allowing us to choose for ourselves. While generally her own personal experience, my mom's spirituality was quite intense, and to me, sometimes overrode reason and justified irrational behavior. The results were negative and positive. On the negative side, this was a barrier between us; on the positive side, I am very tuned into the difference between someone sharing their belief system and someone trying to define their belief system as reality and truth.

Of course we are all constantly learning from one another, that is a good thing. It is the spiritual perspective that children's purpose is to teach us that bothers me because it seems quite self-centered and burdens the child. I was aware that my mom felt I was somehow here to judge her (she suggested that was the case). I am grateful that I had the presence of mind to tell her how proud I was of her shortly before she passed (and many times during her life). The idea that she sought my approval made me uncomfortable, but not enough to "withhold" it (despite the fact that it was never mine to give).

[Going by]

Hi Elva

I guess what I am getting at is the need for parents to have boundaries with their children: spiritual, emotional and otherwise. It is probably a good topic for another thread -- how to encourage our children to think for themselves about spirituality while guiding and protecting them.

As far as where I'm coming from, my mother's spirituality was kind of disturbing to me at times, despite my parents' practice of not raising us any religion and allowing us to choose for ourselves. While generally her own personal experience, my mom's spirituality was quite intense, and to me, sometimes overrode reason and justified irrational behavior. The results were negative and positive. On the negative side, this was a barrier between us; on the positive side, I am very tuned into the difference between someone sharing their belief system and someone trying to define their belief system as reality and truth.

Of course we are all constantly learning from one another, that is a good thing. It is the spiritual perspective that children's purpose is to teach us that bothers me because it seems quite self-centered and burdens the child. I was aware that my mom felt I was somehow here to judge her (she suggested that was the case). I am grateful that I had the presence of mind to tell her how proud I was of her shortly before she passed (and many times during her life). The idea that she sought my approval made me uncomfortable, but not enough to "withhold" it (despite the fact that it was never mine to give).

you are truly right about boundaries with our children, emotional or physical. And you know want, children will demand and ask for those boundaries. They change over time (teenagers versus children versus todlers) and over situations (anguish provoking situation versus playful one for example). Parents just have to listen to their children and the balance will be maintained. The only time we have to push is when there is physical or large emotional threat to protect them from, and if pushing you then have to be very clear on what you are doing and precisely for which reason.

[Going by]

How can people own their kids when they are not even capab le of owning themselves? Ludicrous illusion.

Alien I do not understand your father vs mother comment above, explain please.

[alienHunter]

Well, I'll avoid a lecture on the birds and the bees... :O)

A female knows a child is hers biologically...the child grows and is born from her body...the father is just an innocent bystander in the process. Some scientists speculate that condition is the biological source of jealousy.

How can people own their kids when they are not even capab le of owning themselves? Ludicrous illusion.

Alien I do not understand your father vs mother comment above, explain please.

[reaver]

Please Reaver, aA loving guide very rarely if ever transforms himself into a fascist tyrant. The guide has to be overwhelmingly tired to look like a tyrant and even there, he is not one yet. Why not a tyrant Jenci: because he is showing a tired human side of being, not a tyrant, just a tired and is giving the permission to the being in front of him to be tired as well sometimes and not be "perfect", just by being himself.

Clearly that's true only to a certain extent. There's a basic principle and that is humans can become "a god" or "a devil" between each pole there are degrees and humans can lean more towards "the devil" or towards "god" at any given time. You can have sporadic moments of "tyrant" rush or vice-versa just as you can go on developing a loving or tyranical aspect.

Take the example of a family which is relatively stable: mom, dad, children. Mom and dad could find themselves going through serious friction between the two and let's say the situation keeps getting worse. What do you think the average couple is going to do? Care for the development and sanity or their children? In most cases that doesn't happen, but they will use "development" and "sanity" as an excuse to use their children for political bargain. Heck I've seen it happenning within my family.

I do tell my daughter once in a while: "don't push it tonight, I am too tired" she does lay off me and she is allowed to tell me the same when she is tired and I do not agree with her.

So let me get this straight: She should lay off when you are tired, but when she's tired you allow her to tell you so, only to dismiss her entirely? notice that you wrote: "... and I do not agree with her"

In my view, You are either a loving guide, guiding someone for its better fulfillment following who the child/person is and wish (not following your own idea of what he should be or have) or your are real a tyrant, detached from your own reality and that of your child, wanting the child to be what you want him to be, not who he is (I purposefully use the terms what versus who).

Ah, but this subject is not black and white you see. Some people can be loving and caring in X, Y and Z aspects, but they can be total tyrants when it comes to A, B and C.

I'm using "loving guide" and "tyrant" as opposing polarities. You could find yourself in either pole or in-between these poles.